Former head coach and midfielder of Dynamo Oleksandr Khatskevych explained what he feels ashamed of at this stage, and what not so much, talked about Vladyslav Supriaga, Vitalii Mykolenko, and his cooperation with Yevhen Kravtsov.
— Oleksandr Mykolaiovych, when Lobanovskyi passed away, Dynamo lost a significant points lead over Shakhtar in the end of the season and for the first time in ten years did not become champions...
— Valerii Vasyliovych left too soon (at 63 years old — ed.), he could have brought a lot more benefits. Of course, it was a shock. From which we then did not recover. A double shock when people of such scale die, who did so much good for the club. Therefore, it is clear that something broke not only in the team but also in the structure of the club as a whole. Dynamo found itself at a crossroads, no one understood which direction to choose. The Surkis brothers had to decide — to keep their coach who would work according to Lobanovskyi's principles or to invite a foreigner. They eventually tried both directions.
— Don’t you think that the problem is that none of the Ukrainian coaches had the trust that Lobanovskyi felt from the Surkis brothers?
— There was trust because Lobanovskyi delivered results. And behind the results there is also a financial aspect. Say, after the sale of Shevchenko, the infrastructure was improved for both the first team’s training and the children’s academy. In fact, the system still worked for a while during Mykhailychenko's time in 2003−2004 when the team played quite well in the Champions League. However, the level of the players who played for the first team of Dynamo gradually declined. And this affected the results.
And then the searches began. Not necessarily relevant ones. Ukraine has always had its own style of play. But after 2012, when Spain won the Euro in Kyiv, we somehow started to blindly copy the Spanish style of football. Thirteen years have passed, and we’re still trying to copy it. It’s time to understand that we won’t play like the Spaniards. We must preserve our identity not only as a country, but also in our football. Which has always had a recognizable face in Ukraine.
During the USSR times, there were always Georgian, Belarusian, and Spartak styles, but the football espoused by Kyiv’s Dynamo was constantly considered modern. Yes, we need to learn and add something, but the basis must remain ours. The Italians adhere to their style, regardless of general trends. They will never play "tiki-taka," but will always rely primarily on discipline in defense and somewhere on one-on-one play. After all, after 2012, when Ukrainian football experienced the peak of its financial prosperity, we began to invent something and renounced our roots.
— You were around that time, heading the reserves of Dynamo. Did the tendencies outlined above influence your work?
— Working first with the reserves and then with Dynamo-2, I encountered three coaches at the head of the main team: Yurii Syomin, Oleg Blokhin, and a little bit of Serhii Rebrov. Syomin and Blokhin did not interfere at all with the reserves and Dynamo-2’s work. They had their own tasks. At that time, the first team had enough strong legionnaires; young players from the reserves could expect to occasionally train with the main team. Syomin sent me players every week who didn’t have game practice, and accordingly, while watching them in the reserves or Dynamo-2, he could notice some young talents.
The youth were good — Zhora Bushchan, Vitalii Buialskyi. They stood out then, but the level of our championship was such that it was difficult for them to rise above the first league. Now there is a lot of youth in the main Dynamo team. I am sure that during the championship of 2012−2014, 80% of those guys would have played in the first league. At the same time, when I was coaching Dynamo-2, no results were demanded from us at all. Through performances for this team, young footballers had the opportunity to go through the adaptation process to adult football after the youth level.
— You left the Dynamo system when you headed the national team of Belarus in 2014. During your time, it played inconsistently — earning points against France, but losing to Luxembourg...
— On the condition that against Luxembourg we played one of the best matches under my leadership in terms of quality. We hit the opponent’s goal 28 times, while Luxembourg had two shots and, scoring once after a ricochet, brought the game to a draw. Such matches happen sometimes. We played evenly against the French — not only did we defend but we also conducted sharp counterattacks. We didn’t look bad in our meeting against the Spaniards either.
Generally, I agreed to head the Belarusian national team largely because I knew this generation of players from the times when I was finishing my player’s career and starting my coaching path in Minsk's Dynamo. Most of the national team players from the 2014−2016 sample had just started their appearances in adult football then. I understood that if I were to take over the national team, it would only be with this generation. Because beyond that, we have a gap in players. I should note that I agreed to work on the condition that no one would interfere with my work. It is clear that Belarus is a specific country, especially in a sport that is completely controlled by the state.
— Unlike Ukraine, where the authorities traditionally treat football with great respect, Lukashenko’s regime doesn’t appreciate the players much…
— In their understanding, footballers are free loaders. But fortunately, no one interfered with my work. Over time, however, they started advising that the team needed rejuvenation. «I can see for myself what needs to be done,» I replied. But when the pressure from the Federation started, I understood that we wouldn't be able to cooperate for long. In Belarus, as in Ukraine, there is a scouting department. So, considering the footballers they offered me... I would... those scouts...
— In a sack and off a bridge?
— Vitya Leonenko says that about footballers. However, I can say that the scouts who advised me then and those who work now are not much different from each other.
— You spoke of your dream to head Kyiv's Dynamo back when you were a playing coach for Dynamo Minsk. The dream eventually came true. However, it's unlikely you envisioned its development and continuation like this...
— Let’s start from the fact that I am probably the only Dynamo coach who has gone through all levels — I headed the U-19 team, Dynamo-2, and the first team. Yes, I agree, for Kyivans, second place is not a result. But let’s look at the table. In 2017, the team led by Rebrov lost to Shakhtar by 13 points. We lost by one or two. Having not played the match against Mariupol.
We didn’t become champions on the football field. The reasons why this happened and why the game in Mariupol didn't take place are known to me, but I won’t talk about them now. It’s not my competence. Moreover, it should be taken into account that the season preceding our arrival had a different format. Teams played two rounds — twice against Shakhtar, twice against Mariupol.
The 2017/18 championship was held in four rounds. Accordingly, we played against Shakhtar and Mariupol four times. And for that reason alone, we found ourselves in a losing situation. But even then, we were missing only that unplayed match against Mariupol.
Also, remember how many players we lost during the 2017−2018 period: Maksym Koval, Yevhen Khacheridi, Mykola Morozuk, Andrii Yarmolenko, Domagoj Vida, Serhii Rybalka, Diemersi Mbokani, Derlis Gonzalez, Artem Kravets, traitor Moraes, and prior to that, Vitorinu Antunes had left the team.
This is the starting lineup. And who appeared? Tomasz Kendziora, Benyamin Verbich, Mykyta Burda, Vitalii Mykolenko, Mykola Shaparenko, and regularly playing Vitalii Buialskyi and Tsyhankov. From the starting lineup, only Serhii Sydorchuk, Denys Harmash remained; at the end of Rebrov’s tenure, Vitalii Buialskyi and Tsyhankov started playing. That’s all.
We restructured but remained competitive. I immediately stated that this team is not for the Champions League. This was not liked by many, but that was the case. Understand that the Champions League is just money for the club. But our level became the Europa League. And there we felt good, winning the group tournament ahead of time for two consecutive years, two rounds before the finish. Then we passed 1/16 — first AEK, then Olympiacos. And in 1/8, we faced teams from top championships. We fought against Lazio: 2:2 away and 0:2 in Kyiv, conceding twice after standards.
And with Chelsea, everything, I think, is clear. Big difference, a significant difference. I agree, we lost 0:8, but then Chelsea won the Europa League. They reproached us as if Olivier Giroud tore us apart. But he still played for the French national team for five more years and played in the World Cup final. I just didn't score for a long time, so we improved his contract conditions at Chelsea. We need to help people. As Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko says, it’s hard for them in Europe. So our entire team decided to support Giroud, let him score after a year without goals.
— Everything you say is grounded. But perhaps it is worth returning to the beginning when Dynamo lost in the Champions League qualifying to Young Boys, winning the Swiss 3:1 at home. It seems that if it weren't for that failure, the situation in Dynamo and your fate in this position could have shaped up differently. After the team did not make it to the Champions League group tournament, Yarmolenko and Vida departed, and Dynamo really was no longer as competitive…
— This is like in the case of Bayern in 1999. The confrontation with Young Boys had to be closed in Kyiv. We had to score five or six and not concede. Instead, we won 3:1, and in Bern made two mistakes — brought a penalty and scored an own goal. Max Koval slightly "helped." But that’s football.
With this team, which had experience playing in the Champions League, we would certainly be much stronger. But still, I am not ashamed of my work at Dynamo. We lost to Shakhtar twice, who were objectively stronger in terms of player selection. We did not fail in the European Cups either. Honestly, after finishing the 2018/19 season, I didn’t go and ask for a job. Ihor Mykhailovych called me himself and said: “We want to continue cooperating with you in the future.” The president expressed understanding that a new team is being built and it takes time for it to play.
However, at the start of the 2019/20 season, we lost in the qualification to Brugge, and the fact that we failed to make it to the Champions League for the third time in a row played its role. We parted ways, and for me, this is understandable.
— At that time, much was said about your relationship with then vice-president of Dynamo Yevhen Kravtsov, about him imposing players on you that you were not satisfied with. What really happened?
— I had a great relationship with Yevhen then and it remains to this day. He did not influence my work in any way. Yes, I expressed my grievances to Zhenya regarding the quality of the footballers he brought at that time — Sidkley and Bueno. I honestly told Kravtsov: “They are not players of Kyiv’s Dynamo level. Maybe for Metalist, they would have been decent. But not for us. Bueno played in Tsyhankov's position. What choice did I have to make? The answer is probably obvious. And on the left in defense, we had Yosyp Pivariich and Mykolenko. Where can we find a place for Sidkley? Zhenya suggested: "Lift him higher." And where higher? There is Verbich.
But Cheche, whom Kravtsov brought — is a wonderful footballer. Another matter is that he did not manifest himself with us. We later speculated with Zhenya why this was the case. Cheche joined us at 26 and decided that he would be irreplaceable. But it turned out that the guys here also know how to play football. In these circumstances, Cheche had to show a bit of character. But it was hard for him after the loads during the training camps. Zhenya suggested using an individual approach and reducing the load volume. However, that would be unfair towards, say, Sydorchuk, Harmash, Buialskyi, who were "gasping" at the same level as everyone else. Yes, I won’t hide it, perhaps I lacked experience working with Brazilian players.
— At that time, there was also the Danish Mikkel Duelund in Dynamo...
— Someone recommended this guy to Ihor Mykhailovych, and the scouting department supported it. "Please," I said, "if there are extra five millions. However, in that position, we have Shaparenko, a home-grown boy." Besides, Danes have never played in Ukrainian football. No one understood whether he would adapt here. In the end, it turned out that Mikkel is no better than our boys. Yes, he is a qualified and promising footballer, but experience showed that he can’t handle loads and is very injury-prone. The issue is not in my sympathies or antipathies. Duelund was simply weaker than Ukrainian players.
— After Mbokani left, Dynamo felt a chronic shortage of a scoring center forward. It seemed that the problem could be solved by Fran Sol. But he didn't find his game in Kyiv either.
— Fran was brought in at my suggestion. However, the guy simply did not have luck. Recall how he debuted: a goal against Olympiacos in the Europa League, a goal against Zorya in the championship, and then a third game in Chernihiv and a severe collarbone injury. This was the attacker we needed. Sol didn’t run much, didn’t press like Biesedin. However, Artem scored five to six goals in 25 matches. This was insufficient. And we also didn’t have luck with Sol: first the collarbone, then during the training camp, he strained the back of his thigh. However, that was the player who could hit the net. He had qualities that no one had after Mbokani.
— In this context, I cannot help but touch on the painful topic of Vladyslav Supriaga.
— Vlad is a fairy tale with a sad ending. Ultimately, for a player, as long as he is still playing, nothing has ended. But Khatskevych is terrible, Mykhailychenko and Lucescu are the same. Now Bartulovych is terrible? And only Vlad is good. I have long said that this boy needs to sort himself out. Whether he was elevated so much that he still cannot realistically assess his capabilities, I don’t know. I do not rule out that this is his level, such player intelligence.
Supriaga has strong traits, he matured early for his age, stood out physically. Vlad became the world champion-2019 among youths. At that same championship, Erling Haaland played, scoring nine goals in one game but didn’t even make it out of the group. But do you feel the current gap between Haaland and Supriaga?
— Oleksandr Mykolaiovych, the full-scale war has introduced a new word into our vocabulary — IPSO, short for information-psychological operation. Back then, as civilians, we didn’t yet know how to define it, but it seemed to me that your final season in Dynamo was specifically targeted against you and your coaching staff as an IPSO and was accompanied by...
— I know those losers who rocked this boat. I won’t get personal, they will recognize themselves. I can say that these people have never held anything harder than a fork in their lives, and their pressure only rises because they can't empty themselves. I am calm about stress; I can translate something into humor, accept something, and not accept something. However, the thoughts of those people who worked against me then are indifferent to me. We are not personally acquainted, I only know how they look.
— Are these media representatives?
— I will refrain from answering. In Ukraine, I had only one incident with a journalist. I was still a player back then. The person was an hour late for the interview. This is not good; you should at least apologize. And not start with accusations that I should have waited for him. I gave him a smack on the face for educational purposes.
— You once wrote that you did not want to give him an interview, the late Artem Frankov.
— I do not know what Artem recalled. I can say that as a journalist and a professional, I respected him. And what displeased him? Maybe, once, we didn't drink 100 grams together? Maybe he didn’t like that.
— Oleksandr Mykolaiovych, to conclude the topic of your Dynamo chapter, tell us what principle you used to select your coaching staff? After all, both Luzhny and Shatsky are representatives of the same old school, with principles that have now started to be forgotten.
— Oleg and Max are the embodiment of the traditions of Kyiv's Dynamo. These people showed by their own example how to strive for the team, how to love it. Moreover, I could not ignore the experience of Oleg Romanovych — both as a player and as a life and coaching experience. Max has less experience but he was responsible for the connection between the first and second teams. He worked there and knew the players.
It was thanks to Max Shatsky that Mykolenko, skipping the youth football stage, ended up in the first team. Against this backdrop, I still had an unpleasant conversation with the director of the Dynamo academy (Oleksandr Ishchenko — ed.). He convinced me that there was no need to rush, that Vitalii was too young, and we would overwhelm him. But when Mykolenko joined the team, Luzhny immediately said: “This is a first-team player. Why should he play with a kindergarten?”
— The previous question is actually a lead-in to the next one. Indeed, you and Shatsky are the embodiment of Dynamo traditions, carriers of the values that the fans of the team cherish. And after that — the move to Russia, to Rotor, a step that will remain a stain on an otherwise impeccable reputation.
— This is a terrible mistake of mine, which I will acknowledge for the rest of my life. The most important thing is that this step gave me absolutely nothing in the professional aspect. Rotor is a team on state maintenance. Football there is not needed by anyone; the club is needed solely for solving personal issues, a cover for siphoning money.
— After that, fate quickly led you to Cyprus, where you also did not stay long, just a month and a half.
— For people who did not go through all this, it is hard to understand that currently, it is extremely difficult for a Belarusian to get a visa and an opportunity to go to Europe. Yes, I was offered several times to obtain Ukrainian citizenship. However, I refused because I consider myself Belarusian. So, I can leave Ukraine, but it is difficult to obtain a residence permit in Europe.
In Poland, after the full-scale war in Ukraine began, there is a special program for Belarusians with a clear civic position, under which such a residence permit can be obtained. Since the time, when my family left after 02/24/2022, I spent two years obtaining documents for myself and my family. At the same time, I did not have the right to leave the Schengen zone. Therefore, at one moment, I had to leave Cyprus and move to Poland.
As for why I left "Karmiotissa" — that’s another question. I can say that the level of football there is now very good, and the results of our clubs' matches with the Cypriots in the European Cups testify to that. "Karmiotissa" is also a good team. However, the misfortune of Cypriot football is that some clubs do not always play by the rules. They do not adhere to Fair Play principles, to put it mildly. I did not want to play such football. The match we lost 0:4 was under a red flag, meaning it was under suspicion from betting shops. When I was told that we had to play a fix-game, I said: "Guys, not with me." After the season's conclusion in "Karmiotissa," 11 matches were under suspicion.
— Your next coaching job, Polish "Zaglebie" from Sosnowiec, also seemed doomed to failure. How did you dare to take over a team that was at the bottom of the second division?
— When I was in Poland, Mariusz Lewandowski called. "Are you without a job?" he asked. "Yes, I'm waiting for the documents; I’ll get them in four months." "So what will you sit? Take the team. There is a possibility that I will join Zaglebie as a sports director soon. We’ll create a private club," says Mariusz. The thing is, in Poland, all teams are also municipal. I listened, went, looked. I called Lewandowski: “Let’s somehow finalize this.” “No, wait, an investor should be coming soon," Mariusz reassured.
The investor indeed came, we got acquainted. He was a guy with ambitions, living in London. I noted that the level of footballers in Zaglebie was terrible. Only three were decent; the rest needed to be replaced. I have never dealt with players of such a level in my career at all. Lewandowski advised to take Ukrainians and promised to give players from "Termalica" who he was then working with. That’s how we came to terms.
When during training camps I started conducting two training sessions a day, I was told that in the Zaglebie’s history, there have never been double training sessions during camps. Then, I came for lunch and realized that with such food, a second training session could not be on the agenda. The meals were completely incompatible with sport activities. All the Ukrainian boys who arrived in Sosnowiec were a head stronger than the local players. Even the goalkeeper Oleksiy Shevchenko, who had long been without playing practice. He helped us immensely. The same goes for Lesha Dovhyi, Artem Sukhotskyi. It’s a pity that due to injury Lesha Bykov fell off. Local coaches came and said that such a level of players had never been there. However, the overall level remained very low. The level of everything as a whole. I saw this and wanted to leave. Already on the third day.
— In the end, you left after the incident with the fans.
— So why did the kibice come to the base? The team had two senior footballers who had in their contracts that they needed to play a certain percentage of matches for automatic continuation of cooperation. I didn’t know this. In my understanding, these guys shouldn’t just be on the team, but next to it. They conspired with the kibice. And they came, shouting "Blacks get out", "Belarusians get out", "Ukrainians get out". They stirred a bit, wanted to hit someone.
— Didn’t they say that they hit someone?
— There was an attempt of aggression. However, I defused the situation when I said that on that note, I was leaving training. I called the club management, but none of them came out, although the office is next to the training field. I called Lewandowski: "Mariusz, ask the mayor of the city why no one from the club reacted to the incident.” The police arrived when everyone had already left. They began to "investigate." "Did someone hit?" they ask. "What? Look at me," I replied. "Are you going to take bodily injuries?" — "And what are you going to take?"
Well, negative experience is also experience. I can say that Zaglebie's infrastructure would make anyone envious: three natural fields, two fields in the arena, a gym, a modern stadium. And nearby is an ice palace and a palace for game sports.
At the same time, Sosnowiec is Gorlivka of the 80s. I played against Shakhtar's reserves there in the 90s. Back then, Serhii Rebrov played for the Donetsk team. So, finding myself in Sosnowiec felt like I had moved back in time 34 years. Everything is gloomy, and people don’t smile. It’s just a catastrophe! A year ago, when the Ukrainian national ice hockey team first defeated the Poles there and won Olympic qualification, we joked that Sosnowiec is a black spot. The youth national football team of Poland also lost there.
— In our hockey team, on the contrary, they said that you came for good luck. And then in the spring, we laughed when the team was preparing for the World Championship in Kaunas, Lithuania, and information appeared that you would come for negotiations regarding working with the local Žalgiris.
— (Laughs) I found out that the hockey players had already left, so I decided not to go. But seriously, there were discussions, but nothing came of them.
— In the end, it turns out that you’ve been out of work for almost a year.
— I recently met with the president of one club, we shook hands and parted ways. There are options for employment in the countries of the former USSR. However, I do not want to consider them. Although it concerned teams that would participate in European Cups. There are also exotic proposals from Thailand and Indonesia. But I have other plans. In September, I returned to Ukraine and am not planning to leave here.
— There is a war here, and it’s dangerously gentle.
— That’s true. But I decided that I will be here. I did not leave three years ago. But then I decided to resolve issues with the documents and had to stay in Poland. Now, when I have the opportunity to travel and work throughout Europe, I have returned to where I feel comfortable. Although, of course, no one wishes what the Ukrainians are currently experiencing. It is not so scary in Kyiv. I have friends in Kharkiv, Sumy, Chernihiv, Zaporizhzhia. It’s much more dangerous for them, but they don’t want to leave their native city. Not everyone can leave. I, for my part, am helping however I can. Both independently and by participating in matches to support the Ukrainian military.
Ivan Verbytsky